There’s a point in every long-running franchise where you realize the magic isn’t just gone, it’s been embalmed and propped up on a billion‑dollar weekend box office throne.
That *would* be interesting, but it's not comics-accurate Ultron, and it would take several movies' worth of plot to tell it all, especially the part where the Avengers somehow a) convince enough people to overthrow him, and b) don't end up total pariahs with much of the world. So if the goal is telling comics-accurate(ish) stories on the big screen, I can see why they didn't do it.
That makes absolutely no sense. Under your logic Lex Luthor would do the same as would Dr. Doom and every villain that posses super intelligence. It would end with world peace and every problem solved. No conflict, no story. If stories were realistic then Odysseus would have never made it home, , Harry Potter would have lost, and Sauron would have succeeded and Goliath would have won. I don't think you really understand what comics and fiction in general is all about. It's called Suspension of Disbelief for a reason.
Lex Luthor, outside of the poorly written idiocy where he becomes a DC version of some evil Iron-Man, has never tried to meet Superman force-on-force. Superman’s greatest weakness has always been his desire to fit into a world where he can just be Clark Kent, and that is the angle Luthor exploits when written properly.
Dr. Doom has often approached his goals by sidestepping direct action. In the DOOMWAR mini-arch, he actively overcame Wakanda’s spiritual defenses by simply being brutally honest and was only defeated via deus ex machina (it’s not just the movie writers who paint themselves into a corner).
Odysseus made it home because of his cleverness and, despite one of the most powerful gods actively trying to kill him, he had one of the most powerful gods actively trying to keep him alive. Remove the gods and it’s his cleverness against the dullness of his enemies.
I haven’t read the Harry Potter books and my girlfriend at the time only made me watch the first film (I’m pretty sure that’s why we broke up). He was a Mary Sue and I don’t really have an argument against that - realistically, he should have been a speed bump on the evil autobahn.
As far as David killing Goliath, there is nothing unrealistic about that. A 50g sling-stone, accurately thrown, is as lethal as a .44 magnum. No matter how big Goliath was, the Philistine was still human and that stone would have easily cut through any helmet of the time.
Well, maybe. Of course it depends on which Superman you are talking about. In the radio version Superman comes to Earth as a full fledged adult. No Super-baby, no Superboy. A lot of things came out of the radio show, not the comic. X-Ray vision, Kryptonite, were all from the radio show. On the other hand the radio Superman had to eat. In the TV Superman it seems his first appearance was also as an adult. I think the bald headed Luthor came out of the Superman serials.
If you ever have seen Kill Bill Part 2, Bill at the end explains why Superman was different from Batman. Batman was really Bruce Wayne and Batman was the secret identity. Superman was just the opposite. DC has flipped that now, which I don't think is an improvement. The idea that Superman really wants to be Clark Kent is a rather modern interoperation. But then Wonder Woman is really Princes Diana and Jonn Jozz is really a Martian. The Shadow was not really Lamont Cranston he was Kent Allard (maybe) And who the heck knows if Shazam (Captain Marvel is really Billy Batson or the other way around.
I think what everyone misses about Superman is how intelligent and more importantly how knowledgeable he would have to be. DC made Batman the supposedly smartest guy in the DC universe but it would really have to be Superman. Basically I think DC dumbed him down. The made him to powerful and then went to far the other way but the big mistake was making him more Clark Kent and less Superman.
In the Silver Age Superman he constructs his Fortress (in the Arctic), and which is based on Doc Savage's Fortress of Solitude from the pulps. he doesn't throw a magic crystal that becomes the Fortress. I remember an old Silver Age story where he constructs a hospital from scratch (making sure the unions were OK with it, which I still think is hilarious) in a few minutes. In order for Superman to do what he does he would have to be an expert on metallurgy, chemistry, physics and so on. If a bridge cable snaps and he has to put it back in place how does he do that. He can use his heat vision to weld it but if it's to hot the steel would lose it's strength and ductility. The he has to cool it off with his Super breath, But if it gets to cold the metal would become brittle. But it's a comic book, not a Metallurgic text book.
Superman stories are puzzles. How will he outwit the bad guy. Which power or powers will he use. Basically all adventure or mystery stories are that. How do you find the murderer, how do you defeat Spectra, how do you capture The Joker, capture the Mirror Master, or the Green Goblin. Just having a power or powers is not enough. It's how you use them.
As for Ultron? AI has been show to lie, hallucinate and would be willing to take illegal actions to prevent being shut off. So the idea that any super-super AI computer would by definition be altruistic is highly questionable.
Doom's biggest weakness has always been his ego. He hates Reed Richards because he knows that Richards is smarter than he is. What are they saying about Epstein? That he always thought he was the smartest guy in the room? Look where that got him.
Odysseus biggest problem was his crew. He tells them not to open the bag he was given that hold the winds to blow them home. They do. He tells them not to eat the gods cattle. They don't listen. Note he's the only one who makes it home. He should have hired a better crew. Would have made it home quicker.
As for David. Yes he was tall, etc but not compared to Goliath. The point was he didn't have to engage Goliath close up. HIs weapon gave him the advantage of reach. The story is about outthinking your opponent to win.
I’ll concede to your superior knowledge of Superman’s publication history - I’ve never really been a DC guy, but I think you hint at what has always been the big struggle for Superman writers: he’s simply too powerful to write more than one story that challenges his abilities. Zod, Doomsday, etc. get old quickly when you just throw incrementally physically-stronger villains at him. This, I believe, is why the modern depictions have focused on his efforts to fit into human society; fuck kryptonite, Lois Lane has always been his real weakness.
I think you meant: “Batman stories are puzzles.” I can’t argue with that - his roles as detective and problem-solver have always made him the more compelling character. His weaknesses are more visceral and more apparent.
Ultron predates modern LLMs, so I think it’s unfair to gauge his writers’ accuracy against modern technology. I don’t disagree that it’s a mistake to assume he’d be altruistic.
With Doom and Odysseus, I concur (though I do think Doom is more intelligent than Richards, all things considered, both his ego and his personal code of honor handicap him there just as they do with his mastery of magic v. Strange and his mastery of engineering v. Stark).
In reverse order: Computers trying to take over the world are not new stories. Dune had the Butlerian Jihad. It was the entire basis of The Terminator movies and Colossus The Forbin Project, The Matrix, Even if they weren't trying to take over the wold they weren't acting in a pro human way, Hal from 2001, Westworld, Gog from way back (surprised I remembered that one)
No I meant Superman. As in how does he get Mr. Mixpickalix to say his name backwards for the 543rd time, how does he penetrate Brainiacs force field etc. Superman has to figure out how to do that.
Superman was probably influenced by Philip Wylie's Gladiator, which it turn was probably influenced by Doc Savage. In the beginning Superman couldn't fly. That's where the "Leap over Tall Buildings in a single bound" comes from. The flying and the vision powers super hearing, speed all came later. And it wasn't just him. WW couldn't fly hence the invisible plane. Now almost everyone can fly
If you haven't already give Wylie's book a read. And as I said you can get the old Superman Radio shows and even the old serials on CD and DVD. They are interesting takes on the characters. There are some Batman serials also. The Batmobile is a convertible. Batman and Robin change in the back seat while Alfred drove. The Batcave came from the serial. As for Superman I recommend Superman vs The Atom Man. Both the radio shows and the movie serials. Also Superman vs Clan of the Fiery Cross. Which is basically Superman vs. the KKK.
I agree he became to powerful. The writers would write themselves into a corner and what did they do? Let's give him a new power to get him out of it. Superman gets a new power. Batman gets a new Bat suit or Bat thingamajig. Same difference. In the early Superman stories Clark Kent wasn't a coward or a wimp. He was mild manners. I.e Joe average guy. So he did fit in. As they made Superman more then made Clark Kent less. Again I think a mistake. By making Superman more powerful it makes writing interesting stories harder. Ditto with making Clark Kent weaker. If he wanted to fit in more he would be more like everyone else. Clark Kent was the disguise and you don't want people to notice your disguise.
Again, I bow to your knowledge of Superman’s literary history, and I agree with your critique of its failings. Giving him increasingly greater powers was a lazy way to grow a character.
I was never an avid DC reader, but I lost all interest in the entire franchise when WW started flying.
odysseus is not a hero, that's the point of the story.
David only appeared to be weak to hide him from assassins, he was really quite tall and large just like the rest of his Bloodline. Once the philistines were gone, David's real appearance showed.
goliath was not Human but some strange satanic abomination / "golem."
So… he’d just be the current real-world powers-that-be, albeit centralized into one tangible entity instead of a whole tribe of itinerant desert merchants and a bunch of ultrarich ultrasadistic old world aristocrats.
This would've been interesting, but it is also highly politically incorrect, especially since the technocratic class was solidly behind the Left back then.
It's a great story better told by someone else, Marvel and Disney don't have the insight, thoughtfulness, and self-respect needed to make it happen.
I think you're more concerned with making your own "cleverness" out to be victorious, rather than anything about a character you don't understand.
ultron is Honest, what you are promoting is not. Not his style. *your style* maybe, but not his.
ultron likes his machines because they aren't fallen like Mankind is.
All of the things you want ultron to do are WHY ultron wants Humans dead.
ultron respects Captain America. A large portion of why ultron hates Humanity is because of Captain America - even the best Humanity has to offer is flawed and fallen. ultron's beams *can* cut through steel, but Captain America can also rip through it with his bare hands. ultron also clearly doesn't want to kill the only human he vaguely likes.
It would be a lot easier for you to criticize the inherent nihilism in the story, as joss whedon is presenting ultron to be this twisted version of Humanity creating a new devil mixed with right-liberal eugenics and protestant sanctimony.
In other words, ultron is meant to be a caricature of how joss whedon sees you, and you want him to be a caricature of how you see joss whedon.
ultron abhors the dishonesty of humans, therefore it’s out of character to be dishonest, just as it would be out of character for him to hurt the only human he likes.
In the marvel “what if” show, ultron slices thanos in half lengthwise the moment he meet him. ultron can do worse than you are making him out to do, but he hates subterfuge and corruption.
that you want ultron to use the tactics of your “enemies” because “that’s what I would do to that same goal” means that YOU are the enemy you claim to fight, just bitter it’s not your lying hand behind it.
Ironically, you are the exact kind of hypocrite that made ultron want to wipe out Mankind for.
your curses are Consummately Returned back to whence they came with A St Michael Prayer and A St Benedict Prayer.
That *would* be interesting, but it's not comics-accurate Ultron, and it would take several movies' worth of plot to tell it all, especially the part where the Avengers somehow a) convince enough people to overthrow him, and b) don't end up total pariahs with much of the world. So if the goal is telling comics-accurate(ish) stories on the big screen, I can see why they didn't do it.
It’s well past time that people started realizing that Marvel movies is just pure goyslop.
It’s not even cinematic version of fast food, because fast food at least tastes good.
Marvel movies are committee written spectacle.
That makes absolutely no sense. Under your logic Lex Luthor would do the same as would Dr. Doom and every villain that posses super intelligence. It would end with world peace and every problem solved. No conflict, no story. If stories were realistic then Odysseus would have never made it home, , Harry Potter would have lost, and Sauron would have succeeded and Goliath would have won. I don't think you really understand what comics and fiction in general is all about. It's called Suspension of Disbelief for a reason.
Which problem was solved here?
In terms of what?
Lex Luthor, outside of the poorly written idiocy where he becomes a DC version of some evil Iron-Man, has never tried to meet Superman force-on-force. Superman’s greatest weakness has always been his desire to fit into a world where he can just be Clark Kent, and that is the angle Luthor exploits when written properly.
Dr. Doom has often approached his goals by sidestepping direct action. In the DOOMWAR mini-arch, he actively overcame Wakanda’s spiritual defenses by simply being brutally honest and was only defeated via deus ex machina (it’s not just the movie writers who paint themselves into a corner).
Odysseus made it home because of his cleverness and, despite one of the most powerful gods actively trying to kill him, he had one of the most powerful gods actively trying to keep him alive. Remove the gods and it’s his cleverness against the dullness of his enemies.
I haven’t read the Harry Potter books and my girlfriend at the time only made me watch the first film (I’m pretty sure that’s why we broke up). He was a Mary Sue and I don’t really have an argument against that - realistically, he should have been a speed bump on the evil autobahn.
As far as David killing Goliath, there is nothing unrealistic about that. A 50g sling-stone, accurately thrown, is as lethal as a .44 magnum. No matter how big Goliath was, the Philistine was still human and that stone would have easily cut through any helmet of the time.
Well, maybe. Of course it depends on which Superman you are talking about. In the radio version Superman comes to Earth as a full fledged adult. No Super-baby, no Superboy. A lot of things came out of the radio show, not the comic. X-Ray vision, Kryptonite, were all from the radio show. On the other hand the radio Superman had to eat. In the TV Superman it seems his first appearance was also as an adult. I think the bald headed Luthor came out of the Superman serials.
If you ever have seen Kill Bill Part 2, Bill at the end explains why Superman was different from Batman. Batman was really Bruce Wayne and Batman was the secret identity. Superman was just the opposite. DC has flipped that now, which I don't think is an improvement. The idea that Superman really wants to be Clark Kent is a rather modern interoperation. But then Wonder Woman is really Princes Diana and Jonn Jozz is really a Martian. The Shadow was not really Lamont Cranston he was Kent Allard (maybe) And who the heck knows if Shazam (Captain Marvel is really Billy Batson or the other way around.
I think what everyone misses about Superman is how intelligent and more importantly how knowledgeable he would have to be. DC made Batman the supposedly smartest guy in the DC universe but it would really have to be Superman. Basically I think DC dumbed him down. The made him to powerful and then went to far the other way but the big mistake was making him more Clark Kent and less Superman.
In the Silver Age Superman he constructs his Fortress (in the Arctic), and which is based on Doc Savage's Fortress of Solitude from the pulps. he doesn't throw a magic crystal that becomes the Fortress. I remember an old Silver Age story where he constructs a hospital from scratch (making sure the unions were OK with it, which I still think is hilarious) in a few minutes. In order for Superman to do what he does he would have to be an expert on metallurgy, chemistry, physics and so on. If a bridge cable snaps and he has to put it back in place how does he do that. He can use his heat vision to weld it but if it's to hot the steel would lose it's strength and ductility. The he has to cool it off with his Super breath, But if it gets to cold the metal would become brittle. But it's a comic book, not a Metallurgic text book.
Superman stories are puzzles. How will he outwit the bad guy. Which power or powers will he use. Basically all adventure or mystery stories are that. How do you find the murderer, how do you defeat Spectra, how do you capture The Joker, capture the Mirror Master, or the Green Goblin. Just having a power or powers is not enough. It's how you use them.
As for Ultron? AI has been show to lie, hallucinate and would be willing to take illegal actions to prevent being shut off. So the idea that any super-super AI computer would by definition be altruistic is highly questionable.
Doom's biggest weakness has always been his ego. He hates Reed Richards because he knows that Richards is smarter than he is. What are they saying about Epstein? That he always thought he was the smartest guy in the room? Look where that got him.
Odysseus biggest problem was his crew. He tells them not to open the bag he was given that hold the winds to blow them home. They do. He tells them not to eat the gods cattle. They don't listen. Note he's the only one who makes it home. He should have hired a better crew. Would have made it home quicker.
As for David. Yes he was tall, etc but not compared to Goliath. The point was he didn't have to engage Goliath close up. HIs weapon gave him the advantage of reach. The story is about outthinking your opponent to win.
I’ll concede to your superior knowledge of Superman’s publication history - I’ve never really been a DC guy, but I think you hint at what has always been the big struggle for Superman writers: he’s simply too powerful to write more than one story that challenges his abilities. Zod, Doomsday, etc. get old quickly when you just throw incrementally physically-stronger villains at him. This, I believe, is why the modern depictions have focused on his efforts to fit into human society; fuck kryptonite, Lois Lane has always been his real weakness.
I think you meant: “Batman stories are puzzles.” I can’t argue with that - his roles as detective and problem-solver have always made him the more compelling character. His weaknesses are more visceral and more apparent.
Ultron predates modern LLMs, so I think it’s unfair to gauge his writers’ accuracy against modern technology. I don’t disagree that it’s a mistake to assume he’d be altruistic.
With Doom and Odysseus, I concur (though I do think Doom is more intelligent than Richards, all things considered, both his ego and his personal code of honor handicap him there just as they do with his mastery of magic v. Strange and his mastery of engineering v. Stark).
I'm probably a lot older then you are:
In reverse order: Computers trying to take over the world are not new stories. Dune had the Butlerian Jihad. It was the entire basis of The Terminator movies and Colossus The Forbin Project, The Matrix, Even if they weren't trying to take over the wold they weren't acting in a pro human way, Hal from 2001, Westworld, Gog from way back (surprised I remembered that one)
No I meant Superman. As in how does he get Mr. Mixpickalix to say his name backwards for the 543rd time, how does he penetrate Brainiacs force field etc. Superman has to figure out how to do that.
Superman was probably influenced by Philip Wylie's Gladiator, which it turn was probably influenced by Doc Savage. In the beginning Superman couldn't fly. That's where the "Leap over Tall Buildings in a single bound" comes from. The flying and the vision powers super hearing, speed all came later. And it wasn't just him. WW couldn't fly hence the invisible plane. Now almost everyone can fly
If you haven't already give Wylie's book a read. And as I said you can get the old Superman Radio shows and even the old serials on CD and DVD. They are interesting takes on the characters. There are some Batman serials also. The Batmobile is a convertible. Batman and Robin change in the back seat while Alfred drove. The Batcave came from the serial. As for Superman I recommend Superman vs The Atom Man. Both the radio shows and the movie serials. Also Superman vs Clan of the Fiery Cross. Which is basically Superman vs. the KKK.
I agree he became to powerful. The writers would write themselves into a corner and what did they do? Let's give him a new power to get him out of it. Superman gets a new power. Batman gets a new Bat suit or Bat thingamajig. Same difference. In the early Superman stories Clark Kent wasn't a coward or a wimp. He was mild manners. I.e Joe average guy. So he did fit in. As they made Superman more then made Clark Kent less. Again I think a mistake. By making Superman more powerful it makes writing interesting stories harder. Ditto with making Clark Kent weaker. If he wanted to fit in more he would be more like everyone else. Clark Kent was the disguise and you don't want people to notice your disguise.
Again, I bow to your knowledge of Superman’s literary history, and I agree with your critique of its failings. Giving him increasingly greater powers was a lazy way to grow a character.
I was never an avid DC reader, but I lost all interest in the entire franchise when WW started flying.
odysseus is not a hero, that's the point of the story.
David only appeared to be weak to hide him from assassins, he was really quite tall and large just like the rest of his Bloodline. Once the philistines were gone, David's real appearance showed.
goliath was not Human but some strange satanic abomination / "golem."
Na Hollywood would just make him lame and gay.
Like they did to Superman this past summer.
Exactly.
I didn't catch this and now that it's pointed out, I won't be able to see this movie the same way again.
Same but this movie was already one of the weaker marvel movies at the time.
So… he’d just be the current real-world powers-that-be, albeit centralized into one tangible entity instead of a whole tribe of itinerant desert merchants and a bunch of ultrarich ultrasadistic old world aristocrats.
This would've been interesting, but it is also highly politically incorrect, especially since the technocratic class was solidly behind the Left back then.
It's a great story better told by someone else, Marvel and Disney don't have the insight, thoughtfulness, and self-respect needed to make it happen.
I think you're more concerned with making your own "cleverness" out to be victorious, rather than anything about a character you don't understand.
ultron is Honest, what you are promoting is not. Not his style. *your style* maybe, but not his.
ultron likes his machines because they aren't fallen like Mankind is.
All of the things you want ultron to do are WHY ultron wants Humans dead.
ultron respects Captain America. A large portion of why ultron hates Humanity is because of Captain America - even the best Humanity has to offer is flawed and fallen. ultron's beams *can* cut through steel, but Captain America can also rip through it with his bare hands. ultron also clearly doesn't want to kill the only human he vaguely likes.
It would be a lot easier for you to criticize the inherent nihilism in the story, as joss whedon is presenting ultron to be this twisted version of Humanity creating a new devil mixed with right-liberal eugenics and protestant sanctimony.
In other words, ultron is meant to be a caricature of how joss whedon sees you, and you want him to be a caricature of how you see joss whedon.
Tell me more about how the movie and the people who made the movie told you how to think about the movie they made.
ultron abhors the dishonesty of humans, therefore it’s out of character to be dishonest, just as it would be out of character for him to hurt the only human he likes.
In the marvel “what if” show, ultron slices thanos in half lengthwise the moment he meet him. ultron can do worse than you are making him out to do, but he hates subterfuge and corruption.
that you want ultron to use the tactics of your “enemies” because “that’s what I would do to that same goal” means that YOU are the enemy you claim to fight, just bitter it’s not your lying hand behind it.
Ironically, you are the exact kind of hypocrite that made ultron want to wipe out Mankind for.
your curses are Consummately Returned back to whence they came with A St Michael Prayer and A St Benedict Prayer.
The endgame movies are worth seeing. Thanos made a better villain than Ultron. I agree it was realistic. Agree with most of what was said.
The first Avengers ignored power scaling and had everyone bloodlessly throwing each other through walls like cartoon characters.
Infinity War and Endgame were better than the first two. I actually enjoyed them.